Curse

Lanier · Jun 21, 2011, 03:01 AM // 03:01

1st, we should probably distinguish between PvE and PvP changes to a paragon. In my opinion, we should just stick to PvE changes in this thread since there is less controvery there to buffing paragons in PvE than there is in PvP.

2nd, it is insane to say that support is useless in PvE almost every single meta build out there has massive amounts of support. Barbs, MoP, Splinter Weapon, Aegis, Panic, Orders, SoH, smite condition/hex... the list goes on. On the contrary, support (both offensive and, to a slightly lesser extent, defensive) is a vital part of nearly every meta team build there is. Saying otherwise is rediculous.

3rd, my opinion that i stated earlier still stands: merely reverting skills like aggressive refrain and mending refrain and SoR isn't going to be enough to compete with the support offered by necros/rits/monks, and I don't see any reason to penalize taking more of a certain profession in a party at a time (its not like having multiple paragons in a party is all that great right now anyway...)

Reverend Dr · Jun 21, 2011, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

1st, we should probably distinguish between PvE and PvP changes to a paragon.

There is a problem with that. Anet has already said that they don't want to do any more PvE/PvP splits unless necessary because, as far as the client is concerned, its adding a new skill to the game which reduces client performance. This is largely why so many of the class updates have had things go through to PvP that had no business doing so.

So while theoretically it is possible to do so, it practically is impossible to talk about one without talking about the other.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Paragons in their current form should stay dead. They provide ranged axe damage and unremovable party wide buffs, unremovable being the major key problem. If they become viable, they are pretty much guaranteed to be OP because of how shouts and chants work.

The other major problem is that paragons are extremely inflexible in a format that greatly values flexibility. If their inflexibility is so strong that it is worth bringing, that becomes a problem.

Right now they only show up in very one-dimentional 8-man builds and this is not a problem. Well until someone complains that paragons only have a spot in gimmicks.

Still Number One · Jun 21, 2011, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

And saying that the Paragon should stay dead in PvP shows a clear lack of imagination and inability to cope with change. I can understand a lack of faith in ANets ability to balance the Paragon in PvP, but to stay it shouldn't exist is absurd.

Paragons in their current form should stay dead. They provide ranged axe damage and unremovable party wide buffs, unremovable being the major key problem. If they become viable, they are pretty much guaranteed to be OP because of how shouts and chants work. Without a viable way to remove shouts and chants, the effects have to be really weak, last a very short amount of time with a high recharge so they can't be maintained, or have a long (2 seconds or more) cast time so they can easily be shutdown by rangers and mesmers.

All those stipulations have been done with the nerfs to paragons and they are now unused simply because the alternatives are stronger. If the current wave of OP gimmicks is nerfed paragons will make a comeback and will still be regarded as OP even without any changes being done to them.

So to make the class viable you either need to rework its mechanics or significantly turn down the power creep.

P.S. everything I stated is purely PvP, as it was a response to the quoted comment.

Lanier · Jun 21, 2011, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

There is a problem with that. Anet has already said that they don't want to do any more PvE/PvP splits unless necessary because, as far as the client is concerned, its adding a new skill to the game which reduces client performance. This is largely why so many of the class updates have had things go through to PvP that had no business doing so.

So while theoretically it is possible to do so, it practically is impossible to talk about one without talking about the other.

Oh? They still split skills fairly often, and the game is pretty old anyway so its not like its that taxing on most people's systems... I'm sure that they can do some more splits, especially since PvPers seem to think that buffing paragons in PvP would be the end of the world (seems like enough of an issue to warrent splits).

Still, even if no more splits were incorporated (which wont be the case), I would far rather a dull class on life support in PvE be fixed and balance be thrown in PvP than for the class to stay dead in both formats. Far more GW players PvE than PvP, and those that primarily play paragons in PvE can't simply switch characters due to the (stupid) nature of PvE achievements being mostly character based. That said, splits would still be more desirable.

EDIT: I don't PvP often, so I don't know how this would go over... but what if a few buffed chants/shouts remained unsplit (thus would be buffed in PvP too) and several skills were changed to provide chant/shout removal? A new icon on the health bar could indicate if a user was under the effects of a chant/shout, and this would have the added benefit of providing some currently useless skills for other professions with a useful functionality. Thoughts?

2nd EDIT: Let me specify in case anyone misunderstands me: I'm not advocating imbalance in PvP. I want PvP to be balanced, and I think that paragons can be buffed in PvE with a reasonable number of splits and with those skills that arnt split not being broken in PvP.

Mike Jack · Jun 22, 2011, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Wait how does adding a new skill significantly reduce game performance?

Reverend Dr · Jun 22, 2011, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Jack

Wait how does adding a new skill significantly reduce game performance?

Mostly speculation: Larger game files and more resources taken up to run the client. Can't really say as its one of the things that lies in the code itself and we have no choice but to take Anet at their word.

I do agree that they should do more splits. It would have made the last Dervish update a lot less painful on PvP, as well as the mesmer update, and the update prior . . .

But I can't really answer why they don't other than they have said they don't want to split skills unless its necessary as it will reduce client performance. However that is still a fact that must be addressed whenever talking about any type of balance be it PvP or PvE. Also for reference, Paragons are not dead in PvP, they are just used in very one-dimensional builds, which are extremely bad for the state of the PvP game when they become meta rather than a surprise tournament gimmick.

The problem with paragons in PvP is that the class mechanics themselves are very one-dimentional. Adding in chant/shout removal is the worst option. Adding in removals, even if they are added to existing skills, does not make balance.

floor · Jun 22, 2011, 12:38 PM // 12:38

paragons should 100% stay out of PvP, they ruin the game entirely to a similar extent that dervishes have at present. Shouts and Chants are non removable, in many cases non ruptable, and u can stack several of them at once, its retarded as hell and promotes MASSIVE levels of defence. Keep them out of PvP, but do what u like in PvE i dont care.

As a note though, anet should not be organising any more buffs (even though they are zzz) and instead nerf these freaking dervishes back into oblivion. The current dervish pain train, and its links with Fevered Dreams / sig humility / Mantra of concentation (worst thing ever introduced to gw), have got to be sorted out before anything else is changed, the game is unbearable atm, and after several months of it now, ppl still havent found a way to counter it, probably because there isnt one so it desperately needs fixing.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 23, 2011, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Some of the more astute readers might note that Paragons are (or at least should be) quite good at negating heavy pressure like what we see in the current dervish-heavy meta with condition spam and heavy damage.
Skills such as Stand Your Ground and Never Surrender counter damage and degen directly, and skills such as Song of Purification, Finale of Purification, It's Just A Flesh Wound, and Cautery Signet counter it by removing conditions more efficiently than the monk or ritualist can ever hope to achieve. If the paragons hadn't been nerfed so badly there would be a natural counter to what the dervishes are doing now.

Reverend Dr · Jun 23, 2011, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

If the paragons hadn't been nerfed so badly there would be a natural counter to what the dervishes are doing now.

Natural counters are bad for the game. Especially when the counter to an unsatisfying class/playstyle is another unsatisfying class/playstyle.

chuckles79 · Jun 24, 2011, 02:20 AM // 02:20

The whole reason para players want a rework in the first place is so that there is practicality in having more than one in the first place.

I understand not wanting an eight para team in PvP, but there has to be more than just the imbagon.

Yeah, you could play some really fun one off builds in the current PvE Faceroll Meta; but I want to join the daily Z-Pugs without someone leaving because they bring in a 2nd para.

Reverend Dr · Jun 24, 2011, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Yeah, you could play some really fun one off builds in the current PvE Faceroll Meta; but I want to join the daily Z-Pugs without someone leaving because they bring in a 2nd para.

Its kind of already there. Way back during an HM Underworld speedclear contest we ran a 2 paragon + 1 derv backline with no PvE skills (also 7 people). some post with sort of builds here

Aside from that we've used a 4-paragon backline-midline for a long time in PvP.

Last version we had looked something like this: EDIT: that fury bar can't be right, I know it had to have an adrenal chant for energy in it somewhere.

Now it was designed for a pure physical team. It has also undergone a large number of changes over the years. I know that at points we've used song of purification, power is yours, crippling anthem, burning refrain, hasty refrain, hexbreaker aria, stand your ground, anthem of disruption, anthem of envy, song of concentration, bladeturn refrain, energizing finale, purifying finale, and I'm sure a many others. The build has a lot of flex room. Like I said its designed for physical heavy, but it can surely be modified and quite possible one of the paragons dropped entirely.

The healing engine is infuse health for large health swings, absolutely tons of party healing which will offset the health loss on the infuse paragons. Try to save finale of resto for the paragons, but don't exclude using it from people that are going to take damage.

Brian the Gladiator · Jun 25, 2011, 08:39 AM // 08:39

According to the developers, wasn't one of the biggest flaws of GW1 the fact that you couldn't have many of the same profession, resulting in people having to sit in towns waiting for teams that will take them due to a surplus of that particular profession? Your suggestion would fundamentally oppose any attempt to solve this problem in GW1 by implementing a game mechanic specifically designed to escalate this problem.

Is it really that hard to think before starting a forum thread?

KotCR · Jun 25, 2011, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Some of the more astute readers might note that Paragons are (or at least should be) quite good at negating heavy pressure like what we see in the current dervish-heavy meta with condition spam and heavy damage.
Skills such as Stand Your Ground and Never Surrender counter damage and degen directly, and skills such as Song of Purification, Finale of Purification, It's Just A Flesh Wound, and Cautery Signet counter it by removing conditions more efficiently than the monk or ritualist can ever hope to achieve. If the paragons hadn't been nerfed so badly there would be a natural counter to what the dervishes are doing now.

THIS.

It was clearly the Paragon's intended role, but they've nerfed the skills so much it can no longer perform this.

A good example would be the change to Mending Refrain.

It was a solid poision counter, and once offered +4 regen for a modest cost (rather than the unhealthy upkeep of the Monks' mending), maintained with some Shout/Chat spam. Poison causes -4 degen, and is very easily applied and spread (by Rangers since forever, and now by Dervishes too). As a result the counter should also be pretty easy (and we all know simply removing the condition constantly via Monk isn't practical).

They wanted to encourage an offensive game rather than a defensive game, so they made it top out at +3, so Poison would still offer a net -1 degen in the end. Fine. One skill to counter another skill, with the offensive equivalent having the slight edge over it's counter.

But then they went and made it so you could only cast it on yourself in PvP, to prevent it being used at all. This was unneccessary.

What they should have done is left it at +3 but applyable to all, but made it so it only offered the regen while the character it was on was suffering from a condition. This would keep it balanced, useful, and fulfilling it's original intended role and that role only.

This is one example, but I'm sure there's many many others out there experienced Paragons could point out. And with the current Dervish heavy-meta dominating, bringing the Paragon back to it's former anti-pressure glory seems like an incredibly sensible idea (especially seems the classes came in the same expansion). The trick is making it balanced so those anti-pressure abilities can't be used as incredible benefits in a situation were you aren't suffering from heavy pressure damage (not that those don't occur anymore...).

Bear in mind, the Paragon was supposed to be Nightfall's Healer class, so it should be able to heal in pressure-light situations reasonably well too, but that shouldn't be it's focus.

I'm kind of tired of the arguments about an 80AL healer. They're pretty dull. Paragon always have Aggressive Refrain or Soldier's Fury when doing something other than just Spear-chucking, because they don't function well enough without them (the loss of the extra adrenaline gain hurts too much). So they're essentially a 60AL class (yes, they have a shield, but there's nothing stopping Monks or Ritualists bringing one of those and meeting the req for it too, they can easily make the attribute spread), without any effective self-defense skills too, I might add (as the spaces on the bar a Monk or Ritualist would use for them, the Paragon has to use on Aggressive Refrain/Soldier's Fury and maintaining/powering said skills).

Reverend Dr · Jun 25, 2011, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by KotCR

lots of words

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Natural counters are bad for the game. Especially when the counter to an unsatisfying class/playstyle is another unsatisfying class/playstyle.

Not even counting that most of what you said is flat out wrong.

Our Virus · Jun 25, 2011, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Paragons in their current form should stay dead. They provide ranged axe damage and unremovable party wide buffs, unremovable being the major key problem. If they become viable, they are pretty much guaranteed to be OP because of how shouts and chants work. Without a viable way to remove shouts and chants, the effects have to be really weak, last a very short amount of time with a high recharge so they can't be maintained, or have a long (2 seconds or more) cast time so they can easily be shutdown by rangers

So we shouldn't buff paras because then everyone has to play better? That's horrid logic. Necros have skills to prevent shouts/chants and most of the useful ones do have casting times (Defensive Anthem for example) ALOT of shouts are conditional as well, not tO mention more conditions if they are buffed. But really, just because you don't wanna play harder shouldnt mean paras don't get a buff. You may actually learn how to play from one

Reverend Dr · Jun 25, 2011, 05:18 PM // 17:18

1) We shouldn't buff Paragons (anything) because that leads to powercreep, which hurts every single aspect of the game, not just PvP

2) Its not about getting better to play against paragons, its about Paragons themselves being unsatisfactory to play with or to play against.

3) Adding in counters makes build wars the game, not guild wars.

Kanyatta · Jun 25, 2011, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Our Virus

So we shouldn't buff paras because then everyone has to play better? That's horrid logic.

Wrong. Then the team with Paras doesn't have to play as well. That's the issue. Not that the team facing the DA chain has to play better, but that the team with the DA chain can play worse without it affecting them.

Sure, Necros have skills that cause bleeding when someone uses a shout, and some of the good shouts have 1 second cast times and are interruptible, but is it really fair if you change your entire team's setup just to counter one specific aspect of one profession? What if Monks had a 2 second cast, 25 energy skill that healed everyone to 100% health and provided 75% blocking for 15 seconds party-wide? Would you be like, well, if you're good, you should interrupt the 2 second cast every time!!? Sure, some things have built-in counters in the game, but that doesn't mean it's a reason to buff everything.

As an above poster said, Paras should stay dead, because they provide ranged axe damage, and unremovable party-wide buffs and healing. There's no way to make that viable without it being overpowered. Unless you made enchant-removing skills also remove shouts and chants, or something totally loony like that. But if you do that, as also previously stated, then the game becomes build wars, and more "rock-paper-scissors" than "the more skilled team wins."

Our Virus · Jun 26, 2011, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Just bc paras can block brain dead dervs doesn't mean power creep

AndrewSX · Jun 26, 2011, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Our Virus

Just bc paras can block brain dead dervs doesn't mean power creep

Fight OP with OP is the worst thing could happen.
And Dervs shouldn't ever existed in their actual state in pvp: that's the problem there, so doesn't work as excuse. No matter that para could be "natural derv counter". Cause we shouldn't have a counter for a single class. Sure, meele hate is ok. Derv-only killing is stupid.
And in the actual state a normal meele-hate can't stop a derv train. (avatar stuff, teardown, aoe, 3 cond in a sec, Fd ultra sinergy)

In fact, unless you can introduce some "shout/chants/echoes hate(and maybe removal)" other 2 Nec skills, and pair it with rewamped paras, bringing them back to the scene but less powerful then before, para WILL stay dead.
Not because of pvp'ers hate, but cause it would be impossible to manage the balance state.

And that was the reason for the mass nerf afaik...
"-Holy crap, i've created a moster! Nothing can counter it.
-There are some stuff to buff as counter?
-No....
-....Kill him."
And paras got smiterbooned.

*lemming* · Jun 26, 2011, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by KotCR

stuff

If, hypothetically, paragon supplemental party healing were enough to handle dervish pressure, what do you think that would mean for pressure builds that are actually sane?

(Hint: It'd kill them permanently.)